Sweet child o mine Intro

[jules]

Hi,

I thought I would accept Jamie's challenge and post a video of my playing.

It's the intro to Guns and Roses "sweet child o mine" as described on the Guitar Principles website:

http://www.guitarprinciples.com/Guitar_Technique/Rock_Songs/Sweet_Child/Sweet_ChilOf_Mine.htm

I've been playing around with this piece for a few months but decided to really break it down and fully analyse everything i.e. do proper princlipled practice on it.

I experimented with 1,2,3 fingering (as Slash plays it) but eventually settled on 1,2,4 - I found this gave easier access to the 1st string at the end of each bar. Also I used full alternate picking - some people do DOWN UP DOWN DOWN UP DOWN UP DOWN so they are outside picking the final 4 notes of the bar. I went for alternate picking tho I did have to just practice inside picking on strings 1 and 3 with the BPA (right hand only)

From my experience this isn't a very tricky riff to play, but it's hard to make it sound fluid. I do let the notes 'ring' into each other to a certain degree even tho this is never shown in the score/tab.

see what you think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZOKJhQ_24c

Thanks

jules.

[N E Y]

HI jules,

Let's see what Jamie has to say...

In the meantime, I think it is to me professionally technically complete . It feels right and fluid. This to me is electric guitar playing . The only thing I would bring up for your contemplation is make it rock thematically slightly more by accenting the low note more like Slash does. This is just a stylistic observation of feel and musical stance. The way you do it now is delicate and classical/power ballad by comparison which is fine and done accurately with flow . The way Slash interprets it is delicate + rock grit , but not too much grit for the thematic essence of the song. Try accenting the low note to the point that it snaps against the fingerboard in a subtle way, this will add the dynamics to make it rock more emphatically .

This is of course a musical observation. Technically I have nothing to suggest. It is technically complete with all the elements in place with grace and balance to me as far as a youtube clip allows one to see.


ALL MY BEST TO YOU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ney_mello
[/quote]

[Jamie]

Hi Jules,

I think Ney nailed it. It is technically very good, but I am getting the feeling that the player is not exulting in the music, and I always want the player exulting in the music, and I want to feel their exultation as I listen and watch.


I happen to believe you cannot play rock with feeling while sitting down. At some point, like when the technique has been mastered on something,and we are at level 3 practice, I make the student stand up, and when they do, I want to see the body move with the music. You must stand up and get the whole body into it, into every note. And with that, you must be drinking in every note while you play it. It is a physical and emotional act.

Allow the music to move your body, allow it to move your pick hand. Do not be concerned with economy of motion here. Bang at those notes as you feel to.

Now, stand up and put that into the music.....................

p.s. I don't want to sound negative on your effort, you did a great job, it is nice and smooth. I am only saying what I am saying because you have earned the right to do what i am telling you to do, to "go for the music"......................

[Titus Pullo]

... and a driving rhythm (section) should get _anyone_ up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H0gvJPwf90

RIP a great player

PS: I don't think it's off-topic; it's a great example of what Jamie is talking about (watch the entire video).
-

[N E Y]

... and a driving rhythm (section) should get _anyone_ up

f-topic;
-

Thanks for a lovely clip.
Let's look at this statement above. It is often made by many...but while it has much evident truth in it...is it entirely accurate?
This is is a common misconception...Let's clear it out since great musicians ( singers, guitarist , pianists, wind players etc..) work very hard on their time feel. :

A very good or a great rock guitarist NEVER needs a driving rhythm section to get a crowd up. It would be a categoric insult and a source of embarrassment for oneself to suggest that to a great player.

When Jef Healey or Slash simply BEGIN to play alone as in an intro for example the crowds get stoked, as it happened when Hendrix played the end of his set alone in Woodstock. Acoustic players also do that.

This is why I keep stressing -in the interest of helping everyone I can- that rhythm playing and a mastery of musical time and dynamics is VERY important , It is not just strumming or bashing chords "sort off" in time, hoping that the rhythm section will take care of making the band rock...Absolutely not!..at least not in a world class band.

The guitarist is entirely responsible for getting the rock feel THERE as is the rest of the band....always!..The drummer and bassist do drive rhythmically the band alone...In a top band even the singer keeps time and makes it ROCK! Study AXL, JAGGER, BOWIE, IGGY POP,STEVEN TYLER, CALEB FOLLOWILL, ZACK DE LAROCHA, ANTHONY KIEDIS, PLANT,LENNON, Mc CARTNEY and any other great rock vocalist and see how their vocal timing and powerful rhythmic drive is as crucial as everyone else in the band.




ALL MY BEST TO YOU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ney_mello

[Titus Pullo]

... and a driving rhythm (section) should get _anyone_ up

f-topic;
-

Thanks for a lovely clip.
Let's look at this statement above. It is often made by many...but while it has much evident truth in it...is it entirely accurate?

Yes, it is. Hence 'and' with (section) in quotes. Please, let's not play semantics
-

[jules]

Hi Jules,

I think Ney nailed it. It is technically very good, but I am getting the feeling that the player is not exulting in the music, and I always want the player exulting in the music, and I want to feel their exultation as I listen and watch.

....

p.s. I don't want to sound negative on your effort, you did a great job, it is nice and smooth. I am only saying what I am saying because you have earned the right to do what i am telling you to do, to "go for the music"......................

Well thank you both for your feedback Jamie / Ney. I feel quite honoured !

The fact that you both didn't mention technique, missing/wimpy notes or timing etc. mean I must be doing something right I suppose.

I'm quite happy because it only took me about a week to go from playing it very badly to this. In that week I used all the Principles and tips from the forum: No tempo, total body awareness, BPA, working in groups, compacted practice, bottoms up, isolating right/left hand, practicing on high action/heavy string acoutic guitar, etc.

I take your points about making it sound more 'musical'. Really I had been using the riff as a technical exercise and this (128bpm) is my top speed. So I think the way forward is to now take 2 concurent paths:

a) continue good practice and attain higher speeds and comfort playing this riff
&
b) play the riff whilst 'rocking out' !

thanks again !

jules.

[N E Y]

Hi Jules,

I think Ney nailed it. It is technically very good, but I am getting the feeling that the player is not exulting in the music, and I always want the player exulting in the music, and I want to feel their exultation as I listen and watch.

....

p.s. I don't want to sound negative on your effort, you did a great job, it is nice and smooth. I am only saying what I am saying because you have earned the right to do what i am telling you to do, to "go for the music"......................

Well thank you both for your feedback Jamie / Ney. I feel quite honoured !

The fact that you both didn't mention technique, missing/wimpy notes or timing etc. mean I must be doing something right I suppose.

I'm quite happy because it only took me about a week to go from playing it very badly to this. In that week I used all the Principles and tips from the forum: No tempo, total body awareness, BPA, working in groups, compacted practice, bottoms up, isolating right/left hand, practicing on high action/heavy string acoustic guitar, etc.




Yeah ,That is how you do it and it works fantastically as you see.




I take your points about making it sound more 'musical'. Really I had been using the riff as a technical exercise and this (128bpm) is my top speed. So I think the way forward is to now take 2 concurent paths:


I would like to address a more subtle point relating to the purposes and reasons for a technical exercise. This is for you as an advanced player or for those who are born naturals to be more consciously aware of.

Here is a case example of a situation which is very interesting to me because it can be said to be BOTH right and wrong in terms of what it means to practice effectively. Usually the mind needs simplistic "rights" or "wrongs' and for many things it is pragmatically necessary as long as the precise context is defined. In this case we have precisely both, depending on how it is approached.


The wrong angle (as far as my experience is concerned) is to practice something unrelated to the specific music just as a technical exercise. Music is not that and to approach it as such is completely anti-Art by definition.

Players who are artists practice technical exercises which ARE simultaneously musical excerpts as focus points with a deliberate goal of playing exactly those motions in the music when they are practicing that.That is what I did fROm the firts time I picked up a guitar. There was never deviation from music and the direct means to play it.
That is one of the reasons why a natural player does not take years to develop and a prodigy even less time. Of course one has to be a natural player to - being self-taught- KNOW what to select to make into and exercise and WHY.

You did just that with the help of the principles. The principles explain systematically what the natural genius does seamlessly and fluidly while thinking holistically and vert fast, and it took you one week to play this intro with mastery grace and musicality not 30 years -or never- like most who follow the disembodied exercise approach.


The right angle is also present here in that the technical exercise IS the music. In this instance it is advanced complex music and simultaneously an advanced complex technical exercise. And I say that based on the fact that not many students can play this intro WELL.

However now it is time to play it with added musical feel which will demand further technical development, perhaps of a smaller nature but a very real demand nonetheless. This is because technique is the physical embodiment of the music in question and not something one studies unrelated to the music at hand.


If this is a bit confusing or convoluted please feel free to ask for clarifications

[color=#0080BF]ALL MY BEST TO YOU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ney_mello
[/color]

[jules]

Hey Ney,

I never replied to your post.

Thanks for your kind words. As always I read your posts at least twice to make sure I absorb all the details. In this case it was about 10 times. I suppose I was a bit overawed and couldn't think of anything suitable to say.

It is interesting how you say that this piece of music can serve as both a tehcnical exercise and a music in it's own right.

Regarding your comments about playing with added musical feel (which requires further technical development) can you advise on the technical development needed in this case? or is this outside the scope of this forum?



jules.

[bdesilva]

Hey Ney,... It is interesting how you say that this piece of music can serve as both a tehcnical exercise and a music in it's own right.

Hi Jules,

Certainly the best exercises are musical. It seems to me that any good music can serve both. Where ever there is difficulty in a piece, one, by the nature of working with the Principles, turns that section into a technical exercise.