How much unused finger movement too much?

[GAA43]

I just wanted to say thanks for everyone involved in keeping this thread going and to NEY and Jamie for their input.

Sympathetic movement vs tension is one phrase that really clarifies the subject for me.

Also J's comment about Petrucci's fingers was interesting. He really does have huge spaces between them?

NEY I'll take this chance as well to say how much I appreciated your interview with Abstract Logix.

[N E Y]

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Thank you for reading the interview Greg. I am happy to be able to help.





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[jules]

Adding to the previous comments here's my 2 pence worth...


This subject reminds me of a question I had that Jamie turned into a topic for one of her newsletters.... VOlUME 194

I interpret this as you should have 2 working speeds that write in your practice journal every day. 1) the speed you can keep good form and 2) the speed you can keep good notes, rhythm, tone, etc.

I hope Jamie is OK with me pasting it into this thread ....

Jules.


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A Question About "The Working Speed"

Note: The "Working Speed" is the speed at which a particular exercise or passage of music must be worked up to each day in order to experience progress. It is similar to the amount of weight a body builder must work with in order to increase muscle mass. Knowing the working speed at any particular time, for each thing we work to improve, is critical to success in practicing.

Hiya guys,

After using the new book "Beyond The Basic Practice Approach" for a few months and digesting it into my brain I've been thinking about "working speed", and I think there may be 2 different types.....

Say i'm playing a short scale fragment with fingers 1 and 3. When I practice at no tempo I will make sure that 1 and 3 are doing exactly the right thing but also I will ensure that 2 and 4 are staying close to the strings and are ready and relaxed (even tho they are not used in this specific scale).

The reason I check 2 and 4 are behaving is that if I allowed them to tense and "fly off" then I would be doing damage to future scales I will want to play with say 1, 3 and 4 for example (and also the music a currently play with 1, 3 and 4.)

OK so far?

Now as I work up the speed with the BPA I find I hit 2 separate "working speeds" the first (A) is the usual one whereby the music is affected. i.e. the notes become damaged or incorrectly timed etc. The other working speed, (B), which usually happens at lower tempo, is where the correct form of fingers 2 and 4 is lost.

So therefore if I practice faster that (B) but slower than (A) the notes will sound fine and good but fingers 2 and 4 will be misbehaving.

SO......

My question is this: when Jamie says you should start with no tempo everyday and speed up with the BPA to your working speed which one is it? (A) or (B) ??

Thanks

jules



Hi Jules,

Very good observation. The answer is : BOTH!

Your goal now is to increase the speed at which the bad things start to happen to the fingers. There is always an "error margin", meaning, there is a range of tempo at which even though the fingers are behaving badly, the music will not be damaged. So, as long as you stay in that margin, you will be okay, even if your fingers are starting to lose it. If you push yourself too far beyond this point (severe loss of form and excessive tension are the indicators), the finger malfunctions and resulting stress chains will begin to damage the notes, and the loss of control begins to become apparent to the ear.

So, a certain degree of stress, or loss of complete control can be tolerated and still not affect the music. But the important thing to understand is that the higher the speed at which we are in perfect control, then the higher the speed of our "error margin", so we can push ourselves to higher speeds before we have to worry about the music being affected.

So, if your fingers start to lose it at 80 bpm, you want to try to get them to behave until 84 bpm, and so forth. Your "error margin" will have moved up as well. Whereas before you could play at say 100 without damaging the notes, now you can play to 104. The essential thing to understand is that you must push yourself into the area of your discomfort, and then you must conquer that discomfort. We turn discomfort and error into comfort and perfection by applying all the methods in The Principles, and especially, for higher levels of playing, all the methods in the book you are studying "Beyond The Basic Practice Approach".

Some people think they should never practice beyond the point at which they play perfectly. To be afraid of experiencing your own limits will keep you where you are. Arm yourself with knowledge of how to practice, and march into it with courage and confidence!

This is the method. Good observation Jules, and keep at it!

Best,
Jamie

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[N E Y]

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Yes Jules,

In my experience, each musical item, as it were, from a symphonic soloist part, to song to a single note, has a working speed. That speed can be as slow as no-tempo as described in Jamie's principles to any speed above that and, sometimes albeit more rarely, static posing is needed as described in the principles by Jamie, even before no-tempo can be attempted.

The big defeat that awaits so many students, when unsupervised by an experienced master, is that they do not work at their working speed because of impatience, in most cases. They work usually way too fast or too slowly due to pseudo-perfectionism. That means that, when practicing too fast, they are practicing their glitches/chronic mistakes very, very well, and it shows! And, as Jamie pointed out, some stay too long at one speed with a given musical item, when they have already mastered it.

For the slow-fixated person, it is necessary to remind them to define their goal: Are we practicing to play music or are we using the guitar to indulge in a pseudo-perfectionistic mania? Staying stuck at one speed when it has been mastered and the goal attained, is not perfectionism...it is not music making either since the musical goal is to play that part faster.

Perfectionism means work until you get it right and then practice something else that needs to be worked on. Not "kind of right", put perfectly clear and expressive as it should be, and then do it flawlessly and easily every time you play, like a musician is supposed to do! Otherwise how can we expect to enjoy our music if it is horribly disfigured by us?

So the working speed is very cool because you can tell after a bit that "it is time to play a little faster" at the new working speed...because now you actually can do it easily and perfectly!

Where most fail is that they move to a speed that is a bit too fast for the time being, where they cannot practice easily and perfectly, and so they acquire those glitches and handicaps instead of a wonderful technique!

Playing the guitar...very well...requires a very expanded form of consciousness. Such an expanded consciousness is present in all of us, but not cultivated. Only those of us born with that destiny will spontaneously listen to our inner-master. So in that light it is easy to understand why most of us fall into technical inadequacy and seem unable to get out of that state. We need to expand our consciousness to the basic level of an artist's consciousness. That means transforming ourselves into something we (mistakenly) think we are not: An artist!

But if we stop, put the smart phone down, put the iPad down, and think for just one moment: If music is an art and artists play guitar..How am I going to play guitar without becoming an artist? or realizing the artist inside myself?..without expanding my mind like an artist? without changing radically the way I experience life, reality, and all human experience?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ney_mello
http://www.youtube.com/user/NeyMelloOfficial?
http://bit.ly/aSUSw6
http://www.facebook.com/pages/NEY-MELLO/8702485599
http://www.twitter.com/NeyMelloGuitar

[Tomakemusic]

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So the working speed is very cool because you can tell after a bit that "it is time to play a little faster" at the new working speed...because now you actually can do it easily and perfectly!

Where most fail is that they move to a speed that is a bit too fast for the time being, where they cannot practice easily and perfectly, and so they acquire those glitches and handicaps instead of a wonderful technique!

Playing the guitar...very well...requires a very expanded form of consciousness. Such an expanded consciousness is present in all of us, but not cultivated. Only those of us born with that destiny will spontaneously listen to our inner-master. So in that light it is easy to understand why most of us fall into technical inadequacy and seem unable to get out of that state. We need to expand our consciousness to the basic level of an artist's consciousness. That means transforming ourselves into something we (mistakenly) think we are not: An artist!

But if we stop, put the smart phone down, put the iPad down, and think for just one moment: If music is an art and artists play guitar..How am I going to play guitar without becoming an artist? or realizing the artist inside myself?..without expanding my mind like an artist? without changing radically the way I experience life, reality, and all human experience?

Thanks Ney for that post. I think this is one of the most important things about guitar playing that I ever heard verbalized in short and compact sentence.

[GAA43]

Tom, that is a really good excerpt of NEYs post, and it caused something of a realization in me. I'm in the midst of moderately obsessive phase of pursuing technique in my playing, and for the most part I find it very fun and satisfying. However, your post made me realize that I have only been recognizing 'working speed' as a limit from which to launch my ongoing assault on 'getting better', and that I have been spending zero time playing there. And further, I suspect that this is causing me some stress which is actually impeding my progress; in other words I might be trying too hard. So already today I 'sacrificed' some time pushing the speed limit, and spent some time playing some things, including just scales, at my working speed with the metronome, with no thought of turning up the BPM for the next effort.
It was a good thing, quite relaxing, and encouraging, and I'll definitely be doing more of it. It was still very focused practice, but it was nice to be not stumbling as a result of always pushing.

[Tomakemusic]

It's important do realize WHAT DO we practice really? - while exercises and scales are nice and safe - you work their speed up sooner or later but then what? Do we want to go onstage and say "hi guys, i'm gonna play for you some nice scales..."
From Jamie's and Ney's teaching methods (although they seem to put focus on technique) you should find out quickly that whatever is your problem - this is what you should practice the most. It might be lack of repertoire - then build it up, piece by piece, month by month. Of course some pieces are available to work on at given technique level while some other must wait a few years... I made my program dividing any amount of time I have daily into 4 parts (equal in time whenever possible):
- technique -
- music theory - mean ear training, harmony, sight reading...
- improvisation skills
- repertoire

I try also to use as soon as possible to use things that I learned in each subject and introduce them into the other parts.

Another point speaking to me: ... imagine that you, if you're not in regular music study, you must be the TWO persons in one - a student and YOUR OWN TEACHER. Even with a lesson every week you're alone with your instrument for the rest of the week SO IT"S VERY IMPORTANT to spend some hour of time thinking AS you were your teacher - where are the weak spots, how to fix them and many others thoughts. Mirrors, webcams and audio recording ARE your tools.

[Augustine]

I don't have anything to add except to say, what a great thread!