A Good Teacher is Just a Bunch of Digits (Feb-14-05)

[moved from old forum:]

Very interestting explorations.

But is it enough?

What comes to my mind is that the best I can imagine for now is fully developed and very cheap holographic projection (3 dimentional) online.

I just finished teaching the Apex fingering principle and the palm hinge stability technique to a bass player student of mine and I had to use a mirror and change positions and show what I was doing to demonstrate the mechanisms involved from the back, the sides above and below...all this in person....only then did he realy start to grasp the concept and mechanisms. This because it involves multiple simultaneous motions.

This would require a minimun of 5 holographic 3 dimentional cameras, a projection system in the student's computer room accros the world and the lighting to go with each.

All this is quite possible in the advent of usable holographic cameras and spatial 3D projection and if it becomes affordable in our lifetimes AFTER it is invented. Rudimentary holographic projecton is already in existence as an ofshoot of laser technology.

However what we often tend to perhaps overlook and disconsider more often than not is that direct human contact and direct interaction is the ultimate teaching technology. It is from the person that technology is born and the human being is always capable of more than its offspring. Technology mutiplies, sometimes millions of times the abiliy of a single human being..but only in very specalized and limited tasks.

This is technology as we can conceive off in this mechanical hardware minded era.

Given the state of the world and the sorry state of humanity in general we cannot yet produce technology advanced enough to convey what a personal lesson with a teacher can convey or to convey what watching a performer in person can convey.

We cant think creatively enough for this task because it is not part of the world's cultures in general to foster progress and creative innovation. So it is culturally not feasible in the next thousand years or so to think that way. If we look back at the birth of Christ as a landmark in time and see the rate of cultural development. We are about 2006 years in the future and still very concerned with many things that prevent the faster rate of cultural progress necessary to embace a very different cultural mindset that would make amazing technologies possible.By comparison what we have today are primitive mechanical and electromechanical gadgets like microprocessor miniaturization and nano technologies.

They remain "old-school" DA VINCI and TESLA devices only reduced in size and faster in the execution of their limited tasks.

Scientific research itself is hindered by cultural mechanisms like the worldwide importance of personal power and material goods acumulation as a cultural directive for self identity and self validation for men and women.

So for the next few centuries our currently very paltry gadgets cannot fill the gap between master and pupil.

Musical intrument performance is very much like martial arts. Both are tri-dimentional and require the personal presence of the master.
One would not seriously consider learning martial arts online with sofisticated 3d holography even if it was available and affordable.

When your life is on the line you suddenly become much more accutely aware of the fact that you HAVE to be THERE to really GET IT and to know that you got it.

It is only because playing bad guitar is not lethal That we easily surmise that we dont need as much hands on attention. The reality is that we do.

So in my view I agree in principle with everyone that proposes the model of online teaching.

I also realise that the technolgy to do that is not in the realm of today's imaginative paradigms. Our culture has to change worldwide to a much more humanistic world view and a much more co-operative and help minded way. The current cultural choices of material accumulation generate to much greed and thus the need to opress and control free thought. The current value placed on the tyrant and oppresor as a desirable role model of strenght and personal power is too rampant in the multinational capitalistic organizations and in the world's political systems.So the cultural model proposed by Charles Darwin is only a very recent codification and rationalzation of humanity's choices in the last few thousand years.

I could elaborate much more on this but the point is that we have quite frankly been in the last few thousand years too "stupid" as a world culture, all countries contibuting their fair share of genralized sorrow and rampant ingnorance to be able to have the time and the prejudice free mind necessary to innovate technology to the point that it can be used effectively to teach guitar and ..martial arts via internet.there are so many wondefull things about he wrolds cultures but they are the work of a tiny few who dont represent the norm. The balance is largely in favor of marked ignorance and prejudice over wisdom.At least for the time being. Aquick look at todays worldwide newspapers frontpages and newscasts will show what is on most peoples minds nowaday

The great things we DO HAVE are all the work of the very few cultural misfits/visionaries who managed to stay true to themselves. They were rewarded by being ostracised and looked at as freaks and undesirables and barely tolerated and utlised because what they could (can) do is so obviously sheer genius that it has practical life saving applications (science)and existentially live saving applications (art) and then there are the true spiritual beings of all faiths who revealed and show the way through spirituality.


So the way I see it we need very different cultural models worldwide. In the meantime the best I can think off is to follow your heart to show you WHERE to go and use your free mind to show you HOW to get there. It helps to check our motives for pursuing things and look into what we believe is valid and why we think it is valid...we may find out some very liberating things about ourselves, mostly in terms of getting rid of undesirable beliefs we did not know we harbored!

These stand in the way of our being a guitarist or not being a guitarist.

All my best to you

NEY
www.neymello.com

[moved from old forum:]

Just an FYI... I have very near to me one of the world's first 3d projection prototypes. It is crude BUT very much WOW in that the projected image is just like sitting right there in front of you. It is so real that everyone who comes to see it reaches out to touch it. I imagine this technology is probably 10-15 years away from the average person but it is coming.

-Kfisherx

[moved from old forum:]

Somehow I thought a substantive Ney response might show up <grin>)

First, I acknowledge I am over my head. Among my current limitations is the inability to actually play guitar, though my near two months of practicing (Principle, Path, DVDs) has been enjoyable and I believe fruitful, as at least my swimming has improved <grin>). But I do recognize I'm speculating on things I don't actually know about on the guitar side.

However, I tend to stay over my head <grin>) by reading things like Carver Mead's "Collective Electrodynamics (Quantum Foundations of Electromagnetism)"; David Nolte's "Mind at Light Speed (A New Kind of Intelligence)"; and Ray Kurzweil's "Fantastic Voyage: Live Long Enough to Live Forever." Those are also things I don't actually know about.

But little numbers like 7 megabytes per second of information traveling up the optic nerve; notions such as applying stimuli to one part of a split photon causing an identical reaction to the other part of the split photon that might be literally on the other side of the world at the instant of impact; and concepts such as "To make contact with the fundamental nature of matter, we must work in a coherent context in which the underlying quantum reality has not been corrupted by an incoherent averaging process" often rattle around in my 'noggin. Occassionally some off-the-wall notion will emerge from all of the things I don't understand. One, which is also a Kurzweil notion, is the rate of acceleration of things technological. So it may not matter that it took a couple of centuries for X to be invented and to become practical, it MAY only take a couple of decades for Y. And Y may be orders of magnitude more than X.

So the important thing, as we speculate the unknowables that abound, may be to redefine our boundaries, even as we remain captive to mechanical ideas. This notion may have been what Richard Feynman had in mind on page 15-8 of the "Feynman Lectures on Physics (1964), Vol II, when he stated, "There are many changes in concepts that are important when we go from classical to quantum mechanics .... Instead of forces we deal with the way interactions change the wavelengths and waves."

As I recall Mead is fascinated by the notion of collectives, perhaps such as a collective of master guitar teachers. He opines that the whole is more than the sum of its parts, and the individual parts depend upon the state of the whole.

So, in spite of your rather correct litany of all of the physical and cultural barriers we currently encounter, and will continue to encounter, both in Greenville, NC AND throughout the world, the mere fact that we are having such a discussion is mind boggling, exciting, and a huge source of hope.

GeneP

[moved from old forum:]

I think it cost me $5 aussie dollars down at the reject shop to buy a 3d projection device lol. It's quite intriguing what 2 mirrors can do hehe.

However I really doubt that anything will come out that is 'AS' good as human-2-human teaching and that becomes widely available within the next 15 years. I'm willing to be surprised though.

-Jazzarati

[moved from old forum:]

A very interesting and pertinent thread.

Ney's point is quite of the essence. The subtlities of the challenges of continuous upward growth increase as that growth continues. There are situations that arise, obstacles presented, that cannot be removed without the physical presence and the touch of the master teacher.

Teaching is a real time activity. There are moments where the answer appears only because of the emotional connection that exists between the student and teacher, the love between them, and the mutual desire for progress. There must be two thinking minds and two beating hearts in close proximity for this to happen.

There are times that I will touch a students hand, finger, shoulder,etc, and the entire inner experience that they are having as they struggle with that chord or whatever it is changes. And it may be the the first time I have ever touched someone in that way, because it may be the first time I have ever seen that unique combination of mental/physical/emotional dynamics combined in that unique way to produce that unique obstacle.

To me, all students are treasure chests. I study them,I fashion the key, and we open the box and discover the jewels. True, there are many keys that work for more than one treasure chest. However, as you go on, you find there are treasure chests within treasure chests.

All of this being said, I plan to expoit to the maximum every present a and future means of making what I do available to everyone. However, I find I must continually remind people that the greatest and most potent resource is one you already potentitally possess: your passionate desire coupled with your daily WORK!

I sometimes am sickened when I read posts from people (fortunately, only a few, at least around here) where it is so obvious that they put most of their energy and attention into something they love way more than they love working to become great guitarists, and that something else is talking about, worrying about, dreaming about, and agononizing about being great guitarists!


Other that than, the ultimate answer to this crying need we have been discussing for a guitar teacher population whose competency and sincerity matches the willingess and desperation of the guitar student population is this: the creation of as many teachers who are as close to being clones of me as is possible. The only way to do this is to personally train, over an extended period of time, people with whom I feel the kind of connection I must feel to give everything I have to give.

To these people, I will give everything I have, so they can give it to others. A number of them are on the scene now, and over the next few years, I will be working with them, and others who make their appearance. 5 years from now, the landscape will be very different.

I am continually developing new approaches, and with the incredible intellects we are attracting here, all developing their own new directions or extensions of my work, I can only say, to paraphrase "Deeper", "teaching guitar is endless discovery through infinite mystery"! So, let's keep exploring everyone!

Jamie

[moved from old forum:]

((... becomes widely available within the next 15 years))

Actually it could be 30 years, BUT it also could be 5. Either way at a mere 68 years old I'm looking forward to it.

GeneP

[moved from old forum:]

"A very interesting and pertinent thread."

"Ney's point is quite of the essence. The subtlities of the
challenges of continuous upward growth increase as that growth
continues. There are situations that arise, obstacles
presented, that cannot be removed without the physical
presence and the touch of the master teacher."

I hope I don't seem to be discounting that. I'm not. OTOH, few would have thought, 5 years ago, that armed with a cheap guitar, two books, and two DVDs, that I would have my fingers behaving as they are inside of two months of modest daily activity.

"Teaching is a real time activity. There are moments where the
answer appears only because of the emotional connection that
exists between the student and teacher, the love between them,
and the mutual desire for progress. There must be two thinking
minds and two beating hearts in close proximity for this to
happen."

I sense there are more thinking minds than there is opportunity for close proximity. Hence my fantasies about removing the barrier of proximity.

"There are times that I will touch a students hand, finger,
shoulder,etc, and the entire inner experience that they are
having as they struggle with that chord or whatever it is
changes. And it may be the the first time I have ever touched
someone in that way, because it may be the first time I have
ever seen that unique combination of mental/physical/emotional
dynamics combined in that unique way to produce that unique
obstacle."

Let's assume you were not available to correct by touching. How else might that student ultimately accomplish the chord, or whatever, without practicing struggle?

"To me, all students are treasure chests. I study them,I
fashion the key, and we open the box and discover the jewels.
True, there are many keys that work for more than one treasure
chest. However, as you go on, you find there are treasure
chests within treasure chests."

A surprise a day can make life interesting.

"All of this being said, I plan to expoit to the maximum every
present a and future means of making what I do available to
everyone. However, I find I must continually remind people
that the greatest and most potent resource is one you already
potentitally possess: your passionate desire coupled with your
daily WORK!"

So far, my daily activity has been FUN. Not everyone equates WORK with FUN, so maybe it should be coupled with your daily ACTIVITY or PRACTICE.

"I sometimes am sickened when I read posts from people
(fortunately, only a few, at least around here) where it is so
obvious that they put most of their energy and attention into
something they love way more than they love working to become
great guitarists, and that something else is talking about,
worrying about, dreaming about, and agononizing about being
great guitarists!"

Something to think about. I don't plan on becoming a great guitarist. I do plan on playing guitar at a certain level and in a certain style for my very personal enjoyment. I'm open as to where that level might end up, but at this point it only has to be a level that can be enjoyed.

"Other that than, the ultimate answer to this crying need we
have been discussing for a guitar teacher population whose
competency and sincerity matches the willingess and
desperation of the guitar student population is this: the
creation of as many teachers who are as close to being clones
of me as is possible. The only way to do this is to personally
train, over an extended period of time, people with whom I
feel the kind of connection I must feel to give everything I
have to give."

I think we are synched on that.

"To these people, I will give everything I have, so they can
give it to others. A number of them are on the scene now, and
over the next few years, I will be working with them, and
other who make their appearance. 5 years from now, the
landscape will be very different."

That is encouraging. I know I may be harping on my swimming experience too much, but it is something I do actually know about. As I recall the weekend workshop tuition is about $450. So students are springing for that plus whatever their travel costs are. Many of these students are triathletes, who are "natural" runners or cyclists who want to finish their swim with enough left in their tank to do their "main thing." So their motivations are not exactly pure as it relates to swimming. Yet, from this pool, some really good coaches have evolved. The message may be to be open on the front end as to what the possibilities might be.

"I am continually developing new approaches, and with the
incredible intellects we are attracting here, all developing
thier own new directions or extensions of my work, I can only
say, to paraphrase "Deeper", "teaching guitar is endless
discovery through infinite mystery"! So, let's keep exploring
everyone!"

If you consider that you are taking seriously folks like me in exchanges such as this, you will recognize that it is actually a fore taste of some of the things I've been supposing.

I know I don't know how it will play out. I know there will be many twists and turns and false starts. In the end it is about abundancies and scarcities and how to match them up.

GeneP

[moved from old forum:]

"Let's assume you were not available to correct by touching.
How else might that student ultimately accomplish the chord,
or whatever, without practicing struggle?"

Most likely, they simply would not. Perhaps, if they were like me, and worked on the same measure of music that was giving them a problem every day for 20 years, they might gain some insight.

Jamie

[moved from old forum:]

I have to put my two cents into this thread. I work in the technology sector. First of all I have witnessed the current state of live video conferencing and it is just like watching TV. It is pretty amazing. After awhile you don't even realize your not in the same room. This issue is band with, but that will be solved.

I have watched people resist the change caused by technology, but I have also watched people gradually adopt these changes. I do a lot of product training of our sales force and with customers. I sometimes host teleconference calls and webex demos with hundreds of people from around the world. My team is also located across the U.S. and I rarely see them in person. I work constantly with them on conference calls. We have all developed close working relationships, both personal and professional, even though I have never met some of these people face to face.

I think a monthly one hour conference call with Jamie or Ney, where we discuss an exercise, Hammers and Pulls, or a chapter of Deeper would be a fantastic opportunity for all of us. Jamie could send out a file before hand with pictures or video so we can all have something to reference. In the future, with the advent of real time video, Jamie could demo something and we could discuss the technique.

I also think that real time lessons, though not as effective as being there real time, would be far better than nothing.

-Sbilick

[moved from old forum:]

It would be better than nothing. Actually much better...and quite fun too.

In the end if this is feasible we would have an improved situation but lest we forget the obvious:

It is only a question of commitment level and desired level of skill.

To get the ultimate skill level one will always have to be in presence of the master. We can resist that as much as those who resist technological learning curves. But avoidance of personal contact is avoidance of musical talent and avoidance of real reality in the end. Virtual reality is very limited.

It is the same with surgery...you have to be there and be guided and closely observed in person before you are allowed to operate on me!

For those who only want to play doctor it is enough to get very partial and limited guidance at a distance and leave it at that, since not much is expected or desired, and that is fine too. I know how to cook some really cool dishes but I am no chef.Even that I learned in person from my mother and father who both are great cooks and know way more masterfull dishes than I cared, at the time to learn from them....So If I ever want to realy learn cuisine I have to go personally to a master chef and get the real experience.

For those who are serious about playing well.....they find the way to make it happen because they know it is the only effective way to learn at that level.

I think cybernetics have made it possible to communicate very effectively on an international scale on many subjects.

I also see cybernetics as a very convenient isolation mechanism of personal control and filtering by which real life is very frequently bypassed and virtual life is embraced.

A former student of mine, grammy award winner, once commented to me that he was seing a lot of his friends getting fat due to their lives becoming "virtual" at the computer and causing the onset of personal physical decay. That was 3 years ago...

Guitar playing is not really 3d virtual gaming...by a long shot....neither is teaching how to play it.

http://www.guitarprinciples.com/dc/user_files/240.jpg
Real Reality check..

-Ney Mello